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NIKITAB

If your position affects lives, be ready to back it up.
Articles Posted: 55  Links Seeded: 76
Member Since: 3/2006  Last Seen: 9/05/2011

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Nightmare in Congo: More Vicious than Rape

Seeded on Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:08 PM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: msnbc.com
world-news, un, violence, medicine, peace, rape, failure, congo, tragedy, fistula
Seeded by NikitaB
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The atrocity reports from eastern Congo were so hellish that Western medical experts refused to believe them—at first.

In Congo violent rape where women are kicked or have objects shoved into their genitals resulting in a condition called fistula: "a rupture of the walls that separate the vagina and bladder or rectum."

The statistics are staggering. All sides are doing this. I don't know how to react - it's one thing to be raped, it's another to be murdered, but to destroy lives in such an inhumane and violent way is beyond comment.

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  • NikitaB's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Humanitarian Crises
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (48)
NikitaB

Where is the esteemed UN? Where is the civilized world? Where are the liberals who are so concerned with human rights?

  • 7 votes
#1 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:09 PM EST
Pamela Drew

This is unthinkable, we have no claim to being protectors of freedom. Just unthinkable in this age with our powers.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:00 PM EST
Glinda

I had to force myself to keep reading to the end - I kept hoping there would be something to show it might not be true. Literally unbelievable that human beings would behave like such monsters.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:51 PM EST
NikitaB

Pamela, how much do you actually know about the pressure US has exerted on Sudan and other countries? How much do you know about the initiatives that go on in the US? And how come you are not supporting US when they get involved in other places where humanity is compromised (although perhaps not in as brutal an extent) Will you never put aside your partisan position for the sake of humanity? It is this mentality that would result in people screaming "violation of UN" if US decided to act unilaterally that is preventing more direct involvement in democratic countries.

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:24 PM EST
Pamela Drew

Okay, what partisan positions am I not putting somewhere they should be? Got me a little confused by stating my policy positions for subjects I don't think I've even commented on in the threads. Assume away, you know what happens when we assume?

My view of the US foreign policy and "lack of support" for it, stems from the fact that our history of intervention is based on a corrupt agenda of corporate profiteering. The US has operated like a lawless band of thugs, toppling free, sovereign Nations and invading others while turning a blind eye to death and suffering everywhere.

The only time "humanitarian issues" become part of the debate, is when a US interest, that's a Halliburton style friend, can make a buck. The money is syphoned through the Worlld Bank, USAID or similar programs. Why can't you see that America talks the talk but is %$#@ when it comes to the walk. The UN hs no teeth and no respect from the US, Bolton? Diplomacy? Pleeese, don't make me laugh.

American "foreign policy" is the biggest bully around and no heart unless it's citizen sponsored. We have spin doctors who come in with talking points. I track them and their corporate earnings tied to policy. Guess what, our government is a pack of liars and thieves and you name the action there's a buck attached. The good deeds, are from the public and volunteer efforts. FYI, the US is barely qualifying as Democratic country at this point, with questionable elections and State run media and the list is too long but hardly a Nation enjoying freedom..

  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:34 AM EST
Tom B.

The problem with the Sudan is that it has oil. The Chinese buy the oil, keeping the corrupt in power. A blockade of the ports would work VERY quickly. But ,we're tied up in Iraq....

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:54 AM EST
NikitaB

Pamela, you are clueless. Thanks for clarifying that for me yet again.

    #1.6 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:09 AM EST
    NikitaB

    Tom, can you elaborate? Can you reference something that would give us a better understanding of Chinese involvement in Sudan?

      #1.7 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:10 AM EST
      Pamela Drew

      NikitaB...Pamela, you are clueless. Thanks for clarifying that for me yet again.

      How about a pinch of factual information used to counter my points? If I am clueless, are you omniscient?

      • 1 vote
      #1.8 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:07 PM EST
      Rimuladas

      More proof the UN is worthless

      • 1 vote
      #1.9 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:17 PM EST
      Tom B.
        #1.10 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:09 PM EST
        Tom B.

        I am having trouble posting links. Don't know why. Try this: www.washingtonpost.com wp-dyn articles A21143-2004Dec22.html with slashes where I left spaces.

          #1.11 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:10 PM EST
          NikitaB

          Pamela, we've already had this discussion and I do not care to repeat it here because it would distract from the main issue. My purpose was to show you are clueless and have an unreasonable position by triggering you to expand on what you said and thus to render your comment to be of no consequence. I will send you a personal message with additional information so as to not clutter up this thread.

            #1.12 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:11 PM EST
            NikitaB

            This is Tom's link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21143-2004Dec22.html

            Thanks for the link, I appreciate it.

              #1.13 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:14 PM EST
              Danny McGee

              Pamela, we've already had this discussion and I do not care to repeat it here because it would distract from the main issue. My purpose was to show you are clueless and have an unreasonable position by triggering you to expand on what you said and thus to render your comment to be of no consequence. I will send you a personal message with additional information so as to not clutter up this thread.

              Um, it appears to me that you're very confused. Pamela commented showing just as much outrage as you over the situation, but directed her disdain at the government who isn't doing anything instead of "the liberals" who probably by and large don't even know about this situation (I know I didn't), and you jumped all over her and told her to set aside her partisan politics for humanity. What, do you think if people like me and Pamela start saying, "Yes, we love Bush so much and Iraq was such a great idea; I wish those pesky liberals would stop whining about that genocide crap in Sudan," then the government will be more inspired to do something about a situation like this? What the hell is your logic here? Pamela is disheartened that our government never takes action for legitimate humanitarian reasons, and (as far as I can tell) is calling for that to change, and you're calling her clueless and treating her like an enemy to your cause just because she's a liberal. Who's the one with the partisan views here?

                #1.14 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:54 PM EST
                Pamela Drew

                NikitaB...Pamela, we've already had this discussion and I do not care to repeat it here because it would distract from the main issue. My purpose was to show you are clueless and have an unreasonable position by triggering you to expand on what you said and thus to render your comment to be of no consequence.

                We have had no such "discussion" but far be it from me to clutter your threads or diminish your brilliant discussion points with my "ignorance". Nice to see human rights issues "debated" with tolerance and understanding, yes that's sarcasm.

                • 4 votes
                #1.15 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:54 PM EST
                NikitaB

                Danny, if you started your statement with "I love Bush", I would also tell you to take your partisan position and set it aside.

                Pamela: remember the discussion where you referenced crops in a thread regarding something about Sudan or Iraq and we discussed relevance and a sense of proportion and you admitted not having enough information on some subjects to discuss them (or something along those lines)? I'll see if I can dig it up.

                Both of you need to learn about the programs US supports. Are you aware of things like:

                On October 13 [2006], US President George W. Bush imposed further sanctions against those deemed complicit in the Darfur atrocities under the Darfur Peace and Accountability Act of 2006. The measures were said to strengthen existing sanctions by prohibiting US citizens from engaging in oil-related transactions with Sudan (although US companies were prohibited from doing any business with Sudan since 1997), freezing the assets of complicit parties and denying them entry to the US. [53]

                Source

                Are either of you aware of an organization called USAID? Do you have the slightest clue about US involvement in humanitarian efforts in the world? US is the primary contributor?

                You might also want to check out the following:

                - US and Foreign Aid Assistance

                - 2002 HPG Briefing: Trends in US Humanitarian Policy

                - US involvement in the UN

                Forgive my expression, but my point is that if you want to discuss these issues in a constructive manner, regardless of your partisan position, you need to get your head out of your rear and learn at least the basics of the subject. Otherwise you risk doing a disservice to those you are trying to help.

                I am not going to honor unfounded "US = evil" and "US is barely a democracy" snipes with a discussion on this thread because, frankly, they are stupid and they detract from the humanitarian issues. If you would like to continue this discussion, please start another thread and link to it from here. Other commentary, if I deem it irrelevant, may be deleted to prevent this thread from losing value to readers where issues of atrocities taking place in Congo or elsewhere are concerned.

                • 1 vote
                #1.16 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:55 PM EST
                Pamela Drew

                Pamela: remember the discussion where you referenced crops in a thread regarding something about Sudan or Iraq and we discussed relevance and a sense of proportion and you admitted not having enough information on some subjects to discuss them (or something along those lines)? I'll see if I can dig it up.

                Both of you need to learn about the programs US supports. Are you aware of things like: (see above)

                Are either of you aware of an organization called USAID? Do you have the slightest clue about US involvement in humanitarian efforts in the world? US is the primary contributor?

                Bite me. USAID operates in conjunction with the WTO and World Bank to promote agribusiness profits and control. Time for you to do some deeper digging and reserve criticism when your grasp skims the top of the most superficial socio-economic elements of the historic operations and impact. Start by checking out Iraq CPA Order 81. Look into the individual and corporate interests and how they're interrelated. Identify the ISAAA funding and directors and the relative impact of the corporate relationships. Review the revenue streams, subsidies and growth measures tied to policy.

                Come up the curve and learn how corporate welfare works before you jump on the "humanitarian aid" bandwagon. Focus on learning with an open mind and avoid selling a preconceived notion of US moral rightness and benevolence. It's a bunch of BS. Delivering it with insults is strategically ill advised as well as outside the bounds of debate. You've dished more than enough, negative personal remarks with regard to my ignorance. Let the debate points demonstrate that; omit your "insights" regarding my intellect and knowledge .

                • 3 votes
                #1.17 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:05 PM EST
                NikitaB

                Pamela, are you suggesting USAID is bull@!$%# because some people profit from increasing efficiency in growing crops and cutting out the small farmers?!?!?! Over 180 million in WFP funding to Sudan and Eastern Chad alone is bull@!$%#? Pamela, I am starting to get really pissed now because, while you may have valid concerns regarding farming (about which I might not know a great deal), you are completely ignorant regarding US humanitarian policies. I do NOT want this to be discussed on this thread. Unless your next post includes a link to another thread where we can continue this discussion, it will be deleted.

                  #1.18 - Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:34 AM EST
                  Pamela DrewDeleted
                  ignoblus

                  Nikita, US foreign aid is among the lowest in the Western world as a percentage of GDP. If I give one dollar and Bill Gates gives ten, he may have given more, but is he really more charitable? What if he gives that ten dollars on the condition that it will be spent on his products? That's the core of Pamela's argument, and she's quite right about that when it comes to American foreign aid in general.

                  Pamela, in Sudan, the US is one of the few internation actors calling for action to end the genocide. For a long time, a great deal of human rights abuses have been covered up by the world community, but the reasons you cite are only part of the problem. The bigger problems have been the control of international human rights institutions, including the appropriate branches of the UN, by countries other than the US with their own agendas. Those nations include the OIC, the AU, and several allied dictatorships including Cuba. In a few cases, the US are even the good guys.

                  • 1 vote
                  #1.20 - Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:36 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Koozebane

                  What should the USA do to stop it?

                  Send in combat troops to fight in the jungle for an unknown number of years?
                  Train death squads?

                  If the UN was actually worth a damn, they'd be taking care of this unthinkable horror already. It is exactly what the organization was established to do.

                  • 4 votes
                  Reply#2 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:54 PM EST
                  NikitaB

                  K, I think what US should do is announce that the leaders who are suspected of tolerating and supporting these crimes would be destroyed. The leadership of congo should be given an ultimatum and a time limit:

                  a) reduce the number of cases within 6 months to something that could compare to criminal levels. If they fail to do it, they will be physically destroyed.
                  b) leave the government and allow entry of those who accept a). If nobody steps up to the challenge (which I doubt), then UN goes in, identifies every major leader and, in the event of further atrocities, these leaders are physically exterminated regardless of their location or position. This places the leaders into position a) and turns them into a self-policing force.

                  The only thing that can be used to combat brute force effectively saving innocent lives is brute uncompromising force. The people in that region who perpetrate these crimes are to be considered like animals until they prove they are not.

                  • 2 votes
                  #2.1 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:31 PM EST
                  tpdi

                  What do you expect the UN to do? The security council can't do anything without countries like the USA to send troops. I'm sure Kofi Annan has a notepad beside his desk with "take care of unthinkable horror" down near the bottom.

                  • 1 vote
                  #2.2 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:16 AM EST
                  Koozebane

                  Getting the UN to do anything is like pulling teeth.

                  It would end up just like Iraq:

                  No backing from the UN.
                  An ultimatum.
                  A short war.
                  Years of guerrilla fighting in an area with which we're unfamiliar.
                  Not much would change.

                  Getting involved in politics and conflict hasn't really been all that successful the last few decades....and besides, I'm afraid we'd just end up getting a bunch of these women killed.

                  I think what really needs to happen is the sponsorship of several large well armed outposts where women could go for refuge, treatment and possible relocation.

                  Of course, I'm saying this without knowing precisely what level of armed resistance we'd be up against.

                  • 2 votes
                  #2.3 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:59 AM EST
                  NikitaB

                  Koozenbane, I like your idea - a country within a country and slow expansion into the rest of the territory until the violent areas are eliminated.

                  So what would this take? A well organized private professional army and lack of interference from "civilized" nations. At the risk of being naive, what if a transparent international organization is created with participants such as us with the purpose of raising money to establish these forts? I can talk to some of my friends who are doing politics to figure out the political requirements and implications, but suppose that we actually secure enough funding to run this in a transparent manner. I think it just might be worth a try.

                  Essentially we would be able to leverage international social concern to create a solution for this situation.

                    #2.4 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:17 AM EST
                    Koozebane

                    Defending the fort and protecting citizenry against angry natives is what the US did for a very long time. Throw in forward medical units and a temporary hospital in a central location well beyond attack range and you're in business.

                    An undertaking of this size would require massive manpower and countless millions of dollars.

                    Doctors and well trained mercenaries/pilots are some of the most expensive payroll payouts there are. Medical equipment, air transport and heavy arms aren't cheap. You'd probably need an organization the size of the Peace Corps, a well armed and mobile military force large enough to defend a small nation.......and Bill Gates. This is why private, "missionary' style outreach programs are often quite modest in scope and size. This is also why governments of fairly large and wealthy nations usually handle this type of crisis and why things like this end up being so damned political.

                    The first step would probably be a research phase to find out what the program would be up against in terms of armed resistance versus the number of patients these outposts would be treating.

                    Fighting off/avoiding petty thugs armed with light firepower is a bit easier and cheaper than fighting off modestly trained military types armed with rockets and mortars. Especially if they are prone to attacking medical posts and transport.

                    • 1 vote
                    #2.5 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:33 PM EST
                    Koozebane

                    You'd probably need an organization the size of the Peace Corps, a well armed and mobile military force large enough to defend a small nation.......and Bill Gates.

                    Or a UN organization who actually knew their asses from their elbows.....to continue my thoughts.

                    What the world needs is a politically neutral, civilian sponsored and run Civilian Aid Foundation whose sole purpose is sheltering, treating and defending civilians in the midst of dire crisis.

                    Kinda like the Red Cross with big fecking guns and plenty of mean individuals who know how to use them if forced by unwarranted aggression.

                    • 1 vote
                    #2.6 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:54 PM EST
                    NikitaB

                    There is another alternative: corporate sponsors. If it is made economically advantageous for corporations to sponsor such organizations, then it may be possible to secure large amounts of funding. I have an idea of how to do this - been trying to work it out, but haven't had the time to put it together. I think this might push me a little harder in this direction.

                    CAF is exactly what I am suggesting. Moreover, CAF should have sufficient clout to be able to disregard politics to a large extent. That is, if something is labeled genocide, they should be a large enough force and a political position to go in there regardless of local and surrounding government.

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.7 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:25 PM EST
                    Tom B.

                    "There is another alternative: corporate sponsors"

                    Corporations are usually more corrupt and counterproductive than govt. agencies.

                      #2.8 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:13 PM EST
                      Koozebane

                      Their money still spends.

                      Once they give it away to charity for tax write offs, they have little say in how it is used.

                        #2.9 - Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:09 AM EST
                        NikitaB

                        Koozenbane, just spoke to my brother, who studies at Wharton (UPenn) - a business school. He says that there is already plenty of money in charity out there and the problem is often not so much getting the funding as spending it appropriately. So perhaps if such an organization has a credible system behind it, it might have a chance at being created.

                        I've been thinking about this... we should start a discussion and start setting up popular support. We can do:

                        - wiki
                        - NV
                        - custom

                        A user base that would allow people to contribute skills, knowledge, and connections needs to start being created. The structure and exact purpose of the system must be established prior to execution. Should it be open? The more I think about it, the more questions arise, but, scarily, the system actually seems borderline feasible.

                        • 2 votes
                        #2.10 - Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:41 AM EST
                        Koozebane

                        There is a LOT of thinking that still needs to be done.

                        General areas that need extra consideration are establishing rules of engagement and maintaining a neutral reputation.

                        The well armed, defensive nature of this endeavor is what sets it apart from other charities and medical aid organizations. These differences should be the primary concern. It could be very easy for rogue militias and governments to make accusations of espionage and meddling if procedures aren't set up properly.

                        There should also be concerns over exactly who is qualified to receive care and shelter. Outlaws and terrorists are civilians too. Letting the wrong people enter an outpost could be devastating.

                        It's very late here. I'll sleep on it and continue to mull things over.

                        • 2 votes
                        #2.11 - Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:37 AM EST
                        Koozebane

                        Well, it's obvious I"ve been a bit too busy to spend much time on this, Nikita.

                        I'd like to see us take this further than just a bit of online daydreaming about helping people.

                        I'm not a connections or money guy. I'm just an artsy, social analyst of sorts. Envisioning a distinct structure for the setup of this type of endeavor is slightly outside of my expertise.

                        Just a couple of thoughts while toying with the whole idea.

                        Administration must be entirely civilian and completely politically neutral.
                        Medical and defense must be kept separate in every way. No doctors with guns or soldiers in medical transport vehicles.
                        Non military and non medical support personnel would make up a forth group. Construction, maintenance, food prep, supply......etc.
                        Multinational and multicultural ties would add legitimacy to the project.
                        Contributions need guidelines. NO influence in exchange for cash or equipment.

                        I'm also toying with the idea of training civilian refugees to take over certain tasks over time. If done properly, certain outposts could eventually be left behind as fully functioning towns inhabited by natives with skills and a means to protect themselves. Easier said than done. Kick starting an economy could be a biatch.

                        Eh, might as well shoot for the moon while envisioning this sort of project.

                        • 2 votes
                        #2.12 - Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:38 PM EST
                        Reply
                        NikitaB

                        By the way, I know you were responding to Pamela, but I figured I'd offer my two cents.

                          Reply#3 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:32 PM EST
                          NikitaB

                          This was directed to K in #2.

                            #3.1 - Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:32 PM EST
                            Reply
                            se1f

                            The perpetrators neither behave like human beings nor like animals. In my opinion they deserve to be shot on the spot when someone bothers to catch them.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#4 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:41 PM EST
                            ccc

                            Might I suggest a couple of books that shed some light on the present chaos in Africa:
                            King Leopold's Ghost-Hochschild, and
                            Scramble for Africa-Pakenham
                            The chaos that exists there now, in many areas, can be traced to centuries old tribal hatreds and the consequences of rapacious colonialism, particularly, in the Congo (Conrad's Heart of Darkness).I believe it would be foolish for the U.S. to become involved there, and setting up private armies to protect civilians seems likely to just add another group of marauders. The Europeans still have influence and responsibility in Africa and the political pressure should be on them to provide a standing force to respond to crises such as this.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#5 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:49 PM EST
                            NikitaB

                            ccc, history is a Markov Process: we should make decisions on what will have the best outcome based on today, learning from yesterday but not letting it otherwise affect our decisions. The purpose here is to save lives, not to assign blame. A transparent private army might not be an army of marauders.

                              #5.1 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:18 PM EST
                              NikitaB

                              er, mistyped. A transparent professional private army can and must be a civilized army.

                                #5.2 - Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:19 PM EST
                                Reply
                                NikitaB

                                Related Article: When the Janjaweed Come

                                • 1 vote
                                Reply#6 - Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:19 PM EST
                                Rob_NC

                                NikitaB another great discussion...until we here in the US put this partisanship where it belongs ..problems like Darfur will go on...Powell tried to shine the spot light on it...

                                • 1 vote
                                Reply#7 - Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:38 PM EST
                                NikitaB

                                Rob, I don't know what Powell did. Could you expand on that please? Why didn't it fly?

                                  #7.1 - Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:56 PM EST
                                  NikitaB

                                  Oh, and thanks for the complement.

                                    #7.2 - Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:57 PM EST
                                    Rob_NC

                                    ..sure, this is but a small synopsis of his efforts..but even here is a reoccurring problem that we face in the ME,and imhho we will have to confront sooner rather than later.

                                    July 1, 2004--sudanreeves--

                                    Powell's long-awaited testimony provoked a range of reactions.

                                    In Nigeria, which is hosting on-again, off-again peace talks between the Sudanese government and two African rebel groups from Darfur, Khartoum's deputy foreign minister, Najeeb al-Khair Abel-Wahab, rejected the finding of "genocide" and suggested that Powell's words might inflame the situation in the region.
                                    "We don't think this kind of attitude can help the situation in Darfur," he told reporters. "We expect the international community to assist the process that is taking place in Abuja [Nigeria], and not put oil on the fire."

                                    What accounts for US willingness to support such an exceedingly weak resolution? Much of the answer apparently lies in the US understanding that no stronger resolution would have a chance in the Security Council. Indeed, it is reliably reported that Permanent Member China (with veto power) is unhappy with any resolution that is specific to Darfur. Russia is similarly disposed, as are Algeria and Pakistan. No one following the internal deliberations at the Security Council feels that any form of humanitarian intervention will be agreed to by China---certainly not for the foreseeable future.

                                    Thursday, September 9, 2004

                                    CNN

                                    "Sudan is a contracting party to the Genocide Convention and is obliged under the convention to prevent and punish acts of genocide," Powell said.

                                    At this time, he said, "it appears Sudan has failed to do so."

                                    "Today we are calling on the United Nations to initiate a full investigation" into genocide, Powell said.

                                    He said he hopes that the next Security Council resolution into Sudan requests an investigation into all violations of human rights law in the country.

                                    "The evidence leads us to the conclusion that genocide has occurred and may still be occurring in Darfur."

                                    September 10, 2004
                                    Powell Declares Darfur Situation 'Genocide'

                                    antiwar

                                    "We believe in order to confirm the true nature, scope and totality of the crimes our evidence reveals, a full-blown and unfettered investigation needs to occur,"

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #7.3 - Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:56 AM EST
                                    NikitaB

                                    Rob, thank you very much. This is very important for me to know. Is there a timeline on the US involvement in Darfur and the impediments that were ecnountered? Perhaps we should collaborate on a wikipedia subject on this matter?

                                      #7.4 - Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:38 AM EST
                                      Reply
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